jamesprimate on March 04, 2015, 12:48:22 AM:

as Joar and I have discussed it, the pups have pretty much always been considered a really challenging but optional fork in the game. theyve been on the back burner for a bit as weve been putting together the more structurally important stuff (and will probably remain there for a while longer), but the idea were currently running with is that the pups open up certain narrative paths and figure more prominently into shaping the end game / NG+ experience. but, at least as we have it now, babysitting them wont be essential for progression through the game. because yeah its going to be SUPER hard 

jamesprimate on March 04, 2015, 03:17:55 AM:

^ worth noting is that the blinking effect is exaggerated in the gifs due to gif framerate being quite low. in game at 60fps+ the transitions are much smoother. less a blink and more of a pulse.

JLJac on March 04, 2015, 08:04:29 AM:

@Caspar2000 Hey, so you can tell them apart by their shapes and sizes? That's good news then  But it might be a bit too ambiguous still? If you have full color blindness, feel free to stick around and interact as I work with the lizard cosmetics, your input would be really valuable  Work might be a bit slow for the next few though, because of travelling and PAX.

@tortoiseandcrow, yep, I feel the same, the one-color thing has something going for it. I was thinking that maybe secondary colors could work if reds have secondary colors tending towards yellow, while pinks have secondary colors tending towards blue - that way if the primaries overlap you'd still see a distinction between warm and cold in the overall color scheme. The idea about greyscale is really good, I should put them randomly on the grid in grayscale and see to what degree I'm able to identify them.

@RainWorldIsAwesome, awesome name there! If you could hold off on streaming just a little bit that would be great, I want to have a more in-depth talk with James about our stages of going public when I get over to Boston tomorrow!   

@Crispy75, thanks for the well thought through input! I think the reason why they are hard to track has a strange sort of connectedness to the reason why I like the effect. Let me try to explain, haha!

In nature, very few things change color before your eyes - an apple changes color, but super slowly, quick color changes would be like, a chameleon? An octopus? Super rare. So it sort of makes sense for human eyes to be optimized for tracking same-color blotches that move. I remember from somewhere that our sight (on a very close-to-hardware level) mainly tracks edges between colors and dark/light areas, and movement perception is tied to this. Neurons in the image processing part at the back of the eye (my english fails me here) light up mainly on the edge between one blotch of color and the other, and it seems fair to assume that neurons next to these edge sensing neurons would "expect" to perceive the edge soon after, which would be how very low-level movement perception works. I'm blabbering here, but anyhow. Given that things changing color are rare in nature, it's not too far fetched to assume that this process "expects" the color edge to have the same colors, and that maybe edge/movement perception is somewhat impaired by stuff changing color as they move? This would explain the results of the article you linked.

That was (my fantasies) about reality, now let's move to fantasy land! I'm trying to make a Neon Lizard. I want to somehow hint at some sort of biotechnological qualities, but I don't want to have like, nuts and bolts sticking out of them. Whatever is going on here is more sophisticated technology than that... Maybe? This is really fuzzy stuff, but I know what mood I want to get across. So, stuff changing colors are rare in nature, but common in modern technology. Screens change color all the time. The reason why I like the color pulsing of the lizards is this - that it brings in an alien, or artificial, quality. It makes it obvious that this is not "just an animal," it's some stranger entity which doesn't belong to the world we know.

You say that "practiced observers" have an easier time seeing the flashing lights, and I think I'm certainly one of them at this point  That said, I personally don't have a super big problem tracking the lizards. I do experience some of it though, but I think that bit sort of enhances the experience - the lizards become a bit of an alien, unpredictable threat because of it, similar to some ghost in a horror movie. The (in my case very slight) difficulty to track them makes them more menacing, they move quickly through passages, all the while flashing, and with the next flash they might be closer than you expected.

Obviously "cool effects" never trumps actual playability, but I don't think it's that bad trying to see where they are? If a lot of people think it is, let me know! Basically I feel that the "worst case scenario", which would be the brief moment when the lizard is entirely black, is still not unacceptable, the black silhouette is fairly well contrasted against the background, and the fact that it moves while the environments are static also helps.

When many lizards (especially of the same color) pile up in a fight, it is definitely impossible to keep them apart. But is it really super relevant to know which is which in such a situation? It becomes a "pile of danger", which you just shouldn't get near to either way, and that's pretty much all you need to know. If you're interested in which lizard won the fight or something like that, they will eventually separate and you can look at them as distinct entities again.

This is my reasoning! Nothing is set in stone obviously, and if this is indeed a big problem we'll have to tackle it. Just wanted to let you in on why I'm feeling good with this design decision as it stands. 

jamesprimate on March 04, 2015, 05:57:31 PM:

ah yeah there were def some problems with camera switching in that first build. its been fixed in a lot lot lot of instances, but still some occasional weirdness. let us know if you still see it in the next build! the bats should be much less undead too 

JLJac on March 04, 2015, 07:19:06 PM:

I'm not really going for the Tron look, I want way more biological presence than that. These things are to some degree creatures, but they have some alien element as well. It's a fine balance, and I think it'll require a lot of tuning still!

@Teod flickering like a light bulb for the default behaviors would be a bit too "nuts and bolts", I think! But they're supposed to flicker when they're injured, let me know if they're not haha!

Oooah I don't know. But basically we're still only using Unity for Futile sprites and input, so if that stuff will still works, not all that much I'd say 

Yep, this is exactly what we're going for. Potential to "level up", but not through some actual scripted functionality but rather through getting more familiar with this alien world and the game mechanics used to represent it. 

@RainWorldIsAwesome, ohh, undead flies sounds menacing! Are you playing the old build, or the one just added? I.e. do you get fullscreen and a region select screen, or are you just thrown straight into the game? In the new build the bats should behave better, and the dead-end exits that take you nowhere and break the game should be fixed as well.

People, I'm getting on the plane in a few hours! So, those of you that are attending PAX, I'll see you tomorrow  For the rest of you, stuff might get a little more quiet here for a while, but I'll try to check in when I have opportunity, and once PAX is over I'll get back to devlog interaction. Happy weekend!

jamesprimate on March 04, 2015, 08:32:45 PM:

well we havent announced it yet, so thats probably the reason.

jamesprimate on March 05, 2015, 02:38:13 AM (Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 02:44:23 AM):

one of the reasons *we havent announced the build yet* is that we havent done much testing on lower spec computers. since you posted this, ive tested it on a few old / low end PCs that were laying around, and it seems to work fine on them (if a little slow.) it does require you to start it up, close the window, and restart to get the fullscreen running though.

can you describe the bug? i dont think there is much we can do now that we're in PAX mode for the next week, but will be good to know regardless.

oh and chris, if you want Vultures go to Chimney Canopy and RIP

jamesprimate on March 05, 2015, 12:02:13 PM:

Thanks thanks! Yeah some of those early Suburban rooms were among the first levels I did, and some are even from the lingo build! So definitely needed a touchup. That whole region will probably get some restructuring and reworking later down the line when it's placed in the context of the connected world, but this is definitely a step up from where it was.

As for the off centered bug, YEP that just happened the first time as the windo and shaders need a boot to align. Glad it works tho! White screen shader issue seems to be resolved too, which is a relief since Joar can't replicate it it was basically a stab in the dark XD

jamesprimate on March 06, 2015, 04:10:51 AM:

I'm absolutely loving reading through all this 

jamesprimate on March 07, 2015, 05:16:50 AM:

we still have one game mechanic we'd like to explore that hasn't even begun to be implemented yet, and that's "darkness". the regions seen so far are all above ground or near surface subterranean where light is plentiful, but as you go much deeper into the ground the concept is similar to as you describe: a tighter, maze-like gameplay with limited visibility and lighting. BUT we haven't even tried it yet, so we'll see how it goes.

JLJac on March 09, 2015, 07:19:03 AM:

Hi! Post-PAX me writing, so please excuse me being all tired and groggy @_@ We had a really good time though, and it was awesome meeting everyone! Showing off the game went well, and people seemed to be able to grasp the controls etc pretty easily, so we're happy about that! Thanks to everyone stopping by!

Really cool to see you guys playing around with the alpha! Hope you're having fun with it.

On vultures in shortcuts, haha... Remember that even if the game has progressed since the last build, it's still alpha - nothing is set in stone. At this point pretty much every creature needs to spawn in a "den", which is essentially an un-marked shortcut, and because of that I made the vulture able to go through the shortcuts. Also I wanted it to be able to reach more areas, like even the rooms that are not connected to open sky, but maybe it's dangerous enough without that. I'll try out what it plays like to have the vulture unable to go through shortcuts, if it's better, we'll roll with that! I do agree that it's a bit weird that it can't fit in the 2-tile space between the metal beams, but it can fit in the shortcut. So basically, remember that it's an early version you're playing, we are going to try to sort stuff out 

jamesprimate on March 09, 2015, 02:11:26 PM:

Oh don't you worry, there are quiiiiiiite a few more creatures coming up   

JLJac on March 12, 2015, 05:16:00 AM:

Really like the dropping down idea! That could give you some much needed speed in the tight areas.

Update 406

Our newest mechanic that we're really excited about - darkness!



Creatures also cast shadows:



And some creatures can emit light!



Note that we do not plan to have the main character emit light by default, in the game you're going to have to work with light sources. Just wanted to show off my shadow shader here, which is why I stuck a light to the slugcat

Shader seems to be fast enough - it doesn't require a second grab pass but can use the data from the first one, and the fake shadows look good in most situations. Sometimes they become a little bit detached from whatever is casting them, and as I'm sure you've noticed things that are technically in front of the light source cast shadows on the wall behind it. But just like with the Vulture shadow, mood and playability trumps optical correctness. The shader can use some more work though, and I would like to be able to make a directional light as well as the radial one, but just from thinking about what that shader code would look like I already know it's going to be an entirely different level of complicated...

Does anyone know according to what curve light diffuses? It's 1/r^2 right? Is there any good approximation that can be used within a finite radius? Right now I have (1-r)^0.3 or something, which looks a bit too steep according to me. If you just use (1-r)^0.99 or something like that you do get a smoother fall-off from the center, but the center itself becomes a sort of ugly "spike" of intense lightness that could definitely do with some smoothing. Maybe a gaussian curve? Is that insanity to attempt inside a shader?

Also, is there anyone with some useful tips on how to make things look glistening and wet? You sort of need normals for that, right? I'm pretty happy with what I have, but if the walls could look more slippery I would definitely like to give it a try.

jamesprimate on March 12, 2015, 07:54:18 PM:

Agreed on all points. The way it's set up now is that without a light source the cat is clearly visible, but doesn't illuminate the surrounding area. Certain aspects of the terrain are somewhat visible, as are shortcuts, glyphs, etc, so moving around in the dark is SOMEWHAT possible without a light source, but platforming and spotting hidden predators is pretty much out.

This whole dark mechanic is stuff I've been dreaming about for over a year, so I'm MEGA PSYCHED its off to such a promising start! Plans plans plans...

jamesprimate on March 13, 2015, 02:01:40 PM:

Yep! SPAAAAACE WOOOOOORMS!
Here is the link: http://joarportfolio.com/images/spaceWorms/spaceWorms.rar
And the update with info on it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rain-world/project-rain-world/posts/792063

jamesprimate on March 14, 2015, 07:52:04 PM (Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 05:04:05 AM):

Kotaku posted that interview from the twitter picture: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/03/natural-selection-has-been-very-kind-to-slugcat-now-you-need-to-help/

jamesprimate on March 15, 2015, 05:03:35 AM:

(would have been nice if they used one of the updated trailers and more recent gifs/screenshots rather than the old lingo prototype alpha, but hey I'm not complaining)

jamesprimate on March 15, 2015, 11:31:28 AM:

Ah yes! Creature eggs are still definitely planned. We'd like to make them an overlap between single player and multiplayer/sandbox mode, where discovering a creature egg and bringing it back to your den in single player / co-op unlocks that creature  for use in sandbox  / multi. Also possibly for use in a capture the flag mode sort of thing in multiplayer. So yes, big plans for the eggs!

As for logo stuff, there may be some news on that in the relatively near future 

We're just getting back from travels in the next few days, so updates soon.

JLJac on March 16, 2015, 10:03:00 AM:

The way it's gonna work is that you'll be able to see the contour of your own character even without a light source, and you'll see the walls and whatever is in the foreground layer as well because these things will overlap the contour of the player character. I think we're going to have some rooms in the early dark areas that are hard to get through without a light source, but easy to get back out of, to make it so that you don't get stuck in the darkness unless you're particularly stubborn about going in there. If you are, however, it's no worse than hitting restart, the cycles will be fairly short so you won't lose all that many minutes of progress.

When it comes to bioluminescence, I'm once again not all that worried about the science of whatever is going on. I think of this as a cartoon universe, and mood is generally much more important than science - whenever "correct" physics and biology helps to serve the mood they're very welcome (as in the case with the water surface, the algorithm is lifted from a simulation paper because it "feels watery") but science takes the backseat whenever it's not compatible with the artistic vision.

Update 406

More messing around with the light shader. Added a bit of a highlight on corners facing the light source to make it pop more visually:



Trying different overlapping light sources:



And this is what I'm working on currently, bounce-off from sunlight in the dark areas to illuminate the immediate surroundings:



I want this to have some sort of blur filter going on as well, to create a really burnt-out overexposed look for the sunlight, but the problem I'm facing is that just getting the color of one pixel in the level image is like half a page of shader code, and blur depends on getting the neighboring colors from something like 18 different positions. I'll see what workaround I can come up with.

JLJac on March 16, 2015, 12:46:14 PM:

@Schrompf, my shader-fu is not up there  What I do understand of what you say is that you're downsampling to lower resolutions and saving each resolution level as an overlay? But do you do this using a grab-pass on the entire screen? I don't write to a render texture to determine where there'll be light or not, each light source is just a sprite with a shader. This seems to be really fast as I don't need another render texture or even another grab pass, but it might come at a cost when doing stuff like that.

@Gimym JIMBERT hm yeah, that'd be easy - just a full screen sprite which grabs everything rendered below it, does a simple blur, and then adds it back with a blend mode that makes everything lighter. Basically a bloom. I think I'm going to do that either way, we have some plans where that might be just the trick, but in this specific case I want only the sunlight to have the bloom effect, so I'll have to figure something out for that specifically. Even though... hm... I could just do what I described above, except I ask the level texture about whether or not a pixel is lit, and if it's not I treat it as a black pixel... That should work! I'll give it a go!